So most new hires at MS are L63 by default and they obviously don't have to work at it :).I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65.I would not give most of this advice to our campus hires as any kind of roadmap. Senior Director, Data & AI South East Asia lead i.a Aug 2021 - Jan 20226 months Singapore 33NFT Admin & Ops 33NFT Sep 2021 - Present1 year 7 months Netherlands 33NFT is one of the top anonymous. Don't try to counter with stock levels argument as that is more convoluted, and given the current economic debacle's effect on our stock price..I understand that folks want to be Senior this, and Principal that but the truth is that it is mostly a fetish for some big sounding titles. Of course not. My best guess is that you think it should be await. If you're going into that comfort zone of complaining about politics and butt-kissing and favorites, do me this favor: hold your right palm up, nice and flat like you're about to be sworn in to testify in a trial, and now extend your right arm out nice and wide, and then quickly swing your right arm around the front of you in a nice arc that ends with the flat of your right hand quickly connecting to the left side of your face for a hard, resounding slap. I also agree with the promotion-on-transfer point. I saw several far more technically skilled people in the group who deserved this that were passed over. Granted, you have to live in the greater NYC area, but it's a great place to be. I am working towards it would say am there 75% of the way. It's a question your boss gets asked so it's not a surprise to them. To go to L60 as an IC you need to show leadership in your group, proactivity in taking new challenges which affect the success of the group, and be a SME on your tech area (if in a tech role).L61 = M1 of a medium sized team or an IC role which influences the results of a v-team significantlyL62 = M2 or M1 of a large team, or a lead role for a large cross-group initiative (e.g. It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.Can anyone elaborate on that? That is the guy to beat. To the person worried about being same level for 3.5 years don't sweat it. I have staff that are lvl 60 and get paid as much as folks that are lvl 62. Skilled in Surfer 8, MS Project, Primavera, Microsoft Excel, Analytical Skills, Customer Service, Customer Success Management, Vendor Management and Sales. If you're not an Absolutely! In the case of the latter, make sure you have the goods, because your manager now must show his/her hand on whether s/he values you. My manager and I had a plan to influenc that person and it worked. Your Recently Promoted L63 Peers: let's say you have at least one peer that in the past year or so has been promoted to L63. The soft skills definitely matter. Is this confirmed? Add your salary anonymously in less than 60 seconds and continue exploring all the data. Contributed and exceeded in two roles - getting G-Star, then moved to another team with clear headroom and again, exceeded all commits and moved to L64. How long can someone stay at the same level before they get blacklisted? weeks to find another position within the company, otherwise they are laid off.Given 6 weeks to find a position now is a suicide (since most groups can't hire due to the freeze). Framed on my former VP's wall:"High-level guys are low-level guys that don't whine.". Got lucky on that one!!!! Proficient in product delivery, business & cost transformation, supplier management, client relationships and growth opportunities Working extensively at senior board level to deliver high value . This slighlty contradicts some of the other posts. Microsoft is a Technology Giant and has been the biggest Technology Company in recent years. Seems like "director" in Microsoft is not really a level like it is in google or fb (not sure what it means). Learn everything I can about the technology (I'm a PM and don't have a CS background so I work extra hard at this and ask lots of questions.)2. Good luck with that. Especially since the days of job title/level transparency.People should not forget that many times, higher levels do not equal higher pay. So I cultivate relationships with my manager's peers; their support helps tremendously. I have some colleagues now stuck with a career that they dont really want because they move up too much. You have to be extremely faithful to your management while at the same time carefuly growing your broad influence to your manager's piers. But on balance mgrs at MS get things right a lot more often than they get them wrong or we wouldnt be one of the most highly capitalized companies in the history of biz. Experienced sales manager with skills in strategy, lead of direct reports, developing sales forecasts, products pricing and launching new products to the marketplace.<br>Proven abilities to manage key account relationships and large-scale projects.<br>Experienced in presenting to executive senior management, meeting with customers at CxO level and coordinating salesmen's Activities.<br><br . If you are considering leaving your team (or Microsoft) but think you could be persuaded to stay, be careful about how you present this to your manager. YES, there are people who've been promoted due to politics. Find out if you have a positive trajectory in the stack ranking. Join the Levels.fyi community to chat with employees at Microsoft and other tech companies. I came in at L61 2+ years ago. Know when your market worth changes with our verified salaries newsletter, See exactly how much your competitors pay. for 63 promo within a more clear timeline. How many has Live hired this year and OneCare gets cut? Lots of groundwork, considerable drama and leverage but eventually it got done. So either keep slapping yourself or choose to wake up. Are you ok with what you hear? Candidates should have a Ph.D. in Physics and a strong commitment to undergraduate education. By contrast high performers have a fairly accurate self assessment, but are slightly self critical of themselves as well as others. All of us have been asked to move to India by our parent company. I also agree with the requests to have a discussion related to 65+.Anyway, I have seen a very healthy discussion going on here, and most of the thoughts I wanted to share have been mentioned. This is hard for your manager -- he probably doesn't have a clear idea of what it will take to make the case. After that I got 3 levels in 3 years and now at level 64. Sort of like grading on a curve in school. You don't get your money by snatching it out of Google or Apple's hands, you get it by convincing your customers to hand it to you.Do you want to know why Vista is such an unmitigated disaster? That is, an S-shaped curve that is relatively flat at the bottom (slow start), then becomes very steep (steep acceleration), then becomes relatively flat again (plateau). L66 would be Principal or Sr Director. Eng, Go to company page Nothing you do is good, all you get is criticism. It's a matter of human nature for most people not to want someone else to pass them up. Pull the ripcord. In MCS, soft skills are often more important than hard skills since you work with customers (often angry ones), sales (often under pressure and looking for someone to blame). Well, what about everyone else? L65 took four years. I work in MSN and we still have no way to know the levels of our peers. Only one can emerge, and not everyone can be a senior simultaneously. It's also a well-known fact that there is a disparity in levels between Office and now Sinofsky's Windows and the rest of the company, especially below 65 level.About asking your manager and getting their feedback, we're assuming that managers are capable of giving candid feedback. At L63 you should be directing v-teams, serving as a lead or possibly even having direct reports. If you're saying "Ah, dude, my boss is in the way of my promotion" then all I have to say is "Duuuude, your boss is the way to your promotion." * Stability at Microsoft is a two-edged sword. The CSPs are a good attempt to define each level, but anyone who is looking at the CSPs and saying I do that, and that, , but Im not getting promoted is almost certainly missing the point.---I used to work in Devdiv, and I respect Kelly a lot. By then I had already already set up several clients as in independent consultant, so I declined to stay. The downside to this view within the Microsoft culture is that you are always expected to keep climbing the ladder even if you are content with your current job and a solid performer in it. There may be multiple reasons for pay differences - one of which is a small number of salaries submitted per job. 3. My experience is a constant melee of *every* single person trying to influence cross-group. No one else was as good. Think about why they're able to do that.-jcr. Finally, take heart and dont become too discouraged if this is taking a little longer than it seems like it should. Sometimes the answer is, "well, we'll see" and other times the answer is, "if they'd only stop doing X and start doing Y on a sustained basis, I could see it". The first levels came quickly with some sticking around 64 and 65 (half my career).I have always taken on and fixed problem areas that no one else wants to take on. Feedback is not detailed or actionable. I suggest understanding why it is "No" first, truthfully accepting the point-of-view as pissed off as it may make you, and then having a self-directed action-plan to get on track. "Next, I believe this post will most likely be useful for those who entered MS as intern/college hires. In my opinion the visibility games are intentionally or inadvertently started by GMs and VPs. Aren't those the things you are best at? Next, make sure your manager values your contributions and surpass their expectations, making yourself invaluable and not immediately replaceable. Great Post! * It is true that working for the promotion should not be your only driver, but it is important for it to be "a" driver -- of course you should enjoy what you are doing while working to achieve that next level, but remember that you are not there to become a bench-warmer. I spend a lot of my time these days working with partner teams to help them solve their own problems or create wins for their teams even if it only peripherally touches my area. Revise if needed. If you do not market yourself well, even if you are a superstar here at MSFT, your achievements might just go unrecognized (or they might be selectively recognized). an ex-manager used to tell me, if the org needs him to sweep the floor, he would ensure that he would be the best sweeper in the world (no offense to my janitor friends, just an expression). However, the results show that the vast majority of dev/test/pm will make level 63 and in a reasonable timeframe. I used to work in the OneCare team. I'm there. Lots of very true points. Being constantly re-orged is bad. Going from Level 62 to Level 63 is more about EQ than IQ. Barring extraordindary circumstances each year you will get the "welcome to our group" evaluation.Don't forget the aunts and uncles. Your commitments should already provide you with milestones to set as your goals. Anyone know how to handle constant Re-orgs. This will only lead us to a healthy and balanced distribution of levels across genders. Thank goodness for this blog, where MS employees are free to talk about their personal struggles, unlike "other" blogs that censor/prohibit such discussions, so that they can live in some fantasy land and avoid dealing with the real issues. Levels are all about perception.I know devs who are underlevelled and devs who are over-levelled. For some teams - especially those like Office with few departures release-to-release resulting in level compression - that's a rough bunch. B.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, M.Sc in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, PhD in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, Electronics, Designing and implementing Software and Hardware Systems, Benchmarking and validating Software and Hardware Systems, Developing innovative solutions and publish papers and patents, Managing teams and keep track of progress, Predicting market trends, identifying market risks, Identifying future opportunities, preparing company roadmap. Ill answer first question later in this comment. Obviously, this is advice that you may not apply during the current hiring freeze, but keep it on your mind for the future.- At times the focus on the level may not be the most important strategy in the long term. But my manager is communicating to me that it is very hard and I am likely to show patience for another year or two.I do not know how to confirm this without looking like whining. Its above level 64 that things get tough, but getting to 64 isn't difficult. Will there be room on your team? Now read over your answer. Are all management titles and the name used to call then in different orgs can change. Microsoft, Go to company page Microsoft Software Engineering Manager salary levels ranges from 63 (SDE Lead) upto 80 (Corporate VP), with 80 (Corporate VP) level earning average salary of $4851k along with $3675k worth of stock options. How? Get yourself a formal or informal mentor who is already doing what you want to be doing. If youve been at Level 62 longer than about 3 years MS may not be the best fit for you and you should probably be considering other options.kc. I was in a group that was reorging constantly and there were frequent management changes, so it took all of the political skill I'd developed over the years to focus my GM on giving me that fucking promotion. If you push too hard or threaten to leave, you will be written off immediately. Often this is where a perceived negative attitude or lack of soft skills will hurt you the most.Your immediate boss can often look beyond that to the benefit you bring to the organization - mostly because it also directly benefits him or her. Find the right team and manager.2. Third, working on that weakness DAILY (but not exclusively) until they overcome it. A broad perspective matters.3) This is all about stack rank. Let's slim down Microsoft into a lean, mean, efficient customer pleasing profit making machine! Embrace whatever people are saying are your flaws. Not only do I have a much more interesting job with much less BS, I make more money as well. But power plays are at work and I get smacked when I try and take on extra work.So my question to the more experienced is this - how does one get the attention of management when they are focused on their own problems, their favorite underlings (of which I am not one), and when there is not enough work to go around?"1. A past co-worker of mine had the same thing done to him and now there are two devs doing what he did by himself.I guess Microsoft has its reasons. To change Microsoft so that it is small and efficient, and therefore more in line with your thinking?Are you changing your stance because you're leaving the 'hoi polloi' behind? So far, I haven't been successful. Stop thinking of your Mgr as your adversary and listen to what they are telling you. Take responsibility for defining the component in front of you -- is it really the right thing for the product/team? Senior-level Marketing Executive with experience in the consumer and B2B industry. Had I only known this info when I started at Microsoft. If you have an itching to talk about something else, please go here: But Mini, I Want To Talk About Posted by Got two promotions - still level 60If you really got promoted twice then you would have advanced 2 levels.Either you didn't actually get promoted, or someone told you lies. I've been told HR looks for employees that have been at their level too long. The "Most Likely Range" represents values that exist within the 25th and 75th percentile of all pay data available for this role. This makes it very easy to feel underleveled, because the 6 people that started 3 weeks before you might take up the 2 promotion spots available per year for 3 years (numbers all made up).You also, at least in my experience, aren't really given feedback on when you're performing at a level that *could* be promoted. And how do you represent yourself as a leader and influencer when you are in a room with 6 other people vying for the exact same thing? For many in our sub, MCS seems to be the place of incompetent managers and just a pitstop to somewhere else. Never "threaten" to leave or waive external offers in my face unless you're fully prepared to be escorted out of the building that minute. "I actually find the content of this post to be superficial, fairly naive and not reflective of my experience having moved through the ranks from 59 to >65. I think one of the things that is frustrating is how opaque the promotion system really is. This will bump you off the fast-track 96% of the time.No matter how bad things are, always be positive, and provide a recommendation for how to address each problem. By contrast, most directors don't have their own budgets, but need approvals from their VP to do just about anything. Both job switches came from conversations I had with former co-workers or former directors. They are trying to get attention from upper levels more harder then you. given that the resource is static. But it's no guarantee that all your peers will match. I'd like to hear some more experiences from MCS. That clarity may not always result in a promotion on the exact timeline you envision but if you're honest with yourself and have a good manager it really helps.I'm a 13 year Microsoft employee who lived through the bad old days of crappy managers. I know there is always new hope that comes with new leadership, but there is also a restart too. You want to be more efficient, smarter than him. FY08 review: "limited". Just ensure that you do the absolute best in whatever is thrown at you and promotion will take care of itself. I don't yet have any insight into what it might take to become a Partner, so I won't comment on that. 6 years ago I developed what I have been supporting since. You have to enjoy it, or else it'll come across as insincere, and you'll do a half assed job. I will mis-direct and confuse you with hearsay. I am soliciting ideas to reduce cost in this blog. This is where I agree with Mini regarding taking MSFT back to the good ol' lean, mean, and efficient company we enjoyed. There is no better investment at Microsoft for tuning your career. That manager was (in my and many others' opinions) an incompetent, non-technical "manager" who was incapable of recognizing people's talent and contributions. I know devs who got there without doing anything substantial but their manager was nice and there was no competition.In short, Level 63 to me is not important and I really dont respect 63s unless they I've interacted with them.Level 65+ is another story and are devs who have the stuff almost always.- Someone at Level 62. Who cut and paste buggy shit all over the codebase and don't know some of the things that a good L62 should know. I am not saying the manager is trying to sabotage, but when push comes to shove will you get the impactful project. This is a great topic! Owning big features, knowledge about code base, ability to help your peers - irrelevant. The way to get to a higher level is to increase the scope of your contributions.In our group (somewhere in STB), L63 seems to begin with having at least 2 reports. Today's top 83,000+ Senior Director jobs in United States. I guess they are fallible humans too. At this point many people will ask how can I influence others if Im not their manager? There are the clear execptions and I think you can see this more on the engineering side than sales and marketing.One other piece of advice - be mindful of the impression you make on your bosses peers and others in senior levels of the organizations. It's a very rare thing that you'll find a manager who gives you the kind of actionable feedback you need to succeed without doing a whole lot of sleuthing and groundwork of your own to fill in the blanks. My likely response would be "congratulations! VPs may well number in the hundreds at a huge place . Show me you can do this and want to learn more and you'll be on my radar as a possibility.6.